There are innumerable voices chiming-in on what/how/who to vote for, and on this “big” day in the election cycle it’s appropriate to take a few minutes to think deeply and critially bout what we’re doing if/when we engage in politics, especially if you claim to be a follower of Jesus. To this end, I interviewed Dr. David Gill, the Director of the Mockler Center and Mockler-Phillips Professor of Workplace Theology and Business Ethics at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. He is an expert in organizational ethics, helping businesses as an ethics consultant and trainer through EthixBiz, and is President of the International Jacques Ellul Society. Dr. Gill is the author of seven books, and you can find out more about all of his work at his website, davidwgill.org. I started with asking about Gill’s scholarly work on Sociologist Jacques Ellul, especially since Ellul held some radical views which, I think, should have more of an ear for Christians who take their faith seriously.
You’re the foremost scholar on Jacques Ellul’s work, and his writings on anarchy have been really interesting to me. For the sake of any reader’s not familiar with how that word could mean anything positive, how does Ellul define anarchy?
Ellul believes that the nation-state has become an idol, a false god to which people look for just about everything. He believes that in the east and west, no matter what the ideology (Communist, Capitalist, Muslim, etc.) this is the case. Thus “anarchism” — meaning resistance to the growth of the state (any state) — is the only serious position. Most political activity is an “illusion” because it is all heat and no light, all propaganda but no real change in direction or daily life. He is not an anarchist of the type wo believes in unshackling naturally “good” human beings. No, people are sinful so there can be no naïve anarchist “Eden.” He is a “realist”, not a utopian. It is a strategic position, not an ideological one. I think he has some good points but is too pessimistic. The growth of the state is required by the growth of corporate economic and political power; a big state is needed to stand up to predatory capitalism. But the big state is corrupted as well.
What connection does this idea have to Christian scripture?
Ellul thinks that the Bible counsels resistance to the authority of the earthly state in calling for absolute loyalty to the kingdom of God.
Does this idea inform your own perspective on politics? If so, how?
Yes. I especially like to see local communities empowered to manage their own affairs. Community policing, rejection of national educational standards etc. Most of what I consider my political life is in my neighborhood and local organization. Still, unlike Ellul, I do vote. I don’t expect much to change as a result but I am a voter sent by God into the world as it is, not as I would like it to be. I try to vote for candidates and laws that care for my fellow citizens. I do not have a politics of illusion, or fear, or violence.
As this presidential election cycle heats up, the typical perspectives among Christians on politics inevitably surface. Some think that we should launch ourselves headlong into the foray, others simply disengage, how do you think Christians should engage with elections in particular?
Jacques Ellul thought that it was inevitable and even in some ways desirable that Christians would be in all political movements and parties — but that we should always be there not as their “Amen corner” but as representatives of the Kingdom of God. I agree.
I came across an essay you wrote in 2008 on “Political Illusions and Realities“, where you said “the actual directions of our society and world are set by…deeper forces of technique, bureaucratization, the globalizing-technological-corporate economic order, the desperate search for survival, social order, and meaning by Islamic societies, and so on.” Which of these forces do you see most at the forefront in America today?
I think American politics are almost entirely captured by big money expressed in campaign contributions and propaganda playing on people’s fear and ignorance.
How does that play into the way Christians engage with elections (if at all)?
Resist candidates who want to keep the status quo on campaign finance and gerrymandered districts. Read widely and deeply, not just the propaganda machines of particular candidates.
Besides elections, how can, or should, Christians engage with the political process?
(By) Local initiatives and organization for economic development, education, etc. Also we should constantly teach the value system of the Bible.
That idea that we should “teach the value system of the Bible”, could be taken to endorse wildly different candidates and values. What do you see as essential values that should inform Christian engagement?
I mean to teach the Decalogue and the Sermon on the Mount and Romans 12-13 — three very comprehensive frameworks. I discuss the ethics of the Decalogue in my book Doing Right. Of course we also learn from the didactic teaching, the wisdom literature the prophets, etc the parables. My concern is that it is not just a different CONTENT that comes in Scripture but a different process and framework than that coming from the European Enlightenment.
As we engage in this way, what is your perspective on the ultimate end of human society, what theologians might call “Eschatology”? Are Christians trying to preserve society from self-destruction until Christ’s return? Are we hoping to “usher-in” an actual society under God’s rule before that, or something else?
I believe in the literal, imminent return of Christ. I am agnostic about most of the other details. I believe our ethics should be eschatological in the sense that we live “as in the day” as much as possible (Rom 13:11-14).
Many of the Christian circles I’m acquainted with, what I would broadly call “Neo-Evangelicals”, have abandoned the idea of “endorsing” candidates from the pulpit. What role does the church have to play in elections?
I am appalled at the way so many white evangelicals have come out for the neo-Fascist Trump, the political ignorant Carson, and the obstructionist Cruz. Carson and Cruz are Christians though I do not admire or share much of there political position. Trump is a sleezy, self-centered, pagan oaf whose business career is not a success story. But no, I do not like it when Black churches welcome candidates into their pulpits and endorse them. The church should stick to biblically expressed values and prayer — and challenge the congregation to study, discuss, and pray to decide on their votes and actions.